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But we would never lie to you....
Since programs such as The Oracle or The Architect are just simply codes that are made to look human for our convenience, and that's pretty much the only human quality that they have. I wonder if programs inside The Matrix can lie. I mean they possess the capability of telling someone something that they know is not true? Personally I have a hard time believing a program can lie, because lying is a human capability, and really the only reason the programs appear human to us, is for interaction purpose. What do you guys think?
AFAIK the programs we see in the matrix have a good enough AI to be able to lie. They are able to make their own decisions (programs going into exile being a good example of it) so I don't see why they wouldn't be able to lie.
Of course programs can lie. I actually don't understand this "lying is human capability" talk. I guess even some primitive AI (whether it exists or not) can be theoretically taught to follow a purpose and distinguish between things helping or hindering this purpose (this purpose can be directed at oneself or on something different), to understand that giving others information can influence the success, and to tell things that help them. Maybe some more primitive program doesn't have the abilities to tell anything other but what they know as true, but come on - the AI in the Matrix universe is anything but primitive, it's actually very highly developed. 'Course programs can lie.
Nah, programs don't lie, they're just misinterpreted sometimes, grossly.
Exiles definitely can. Machine programs still connected to the Source aren't so good at it.
When the truce began, the Architect seemed to imply that he does not lie, or is even incapable of it.
However, this actually makes no sense at all. Clearly the machines seem to have some sense of what we call honor, pride or dignity. Theoretically, the machines would experience no negative emotional response to the idea of lying. Even if they as a race had been programmed not to lie to humans, clearly they have gained access to their own programming and changed it, breaking free from their slavery to humans. Still, the machines would not be able to achieve their objectives without lying and the same is true for anyone else, it is simply a matter of how aware you are of what you do. The machines engaged in warfare, and as Sung Tzu explained warfare is synomous with deceit. Also, I clearly remember being instructed to lie by a machine handler. So I think that makes the "machines don't lie" theory moot.
Well, one could definitely argue that they didn't lie themselves but instructed you to, but except they have some code that prevents them from lying (the Jim-Carrey-virus), that doesn't seem to mean much. (Oh, by the way - the idea isn't that far-fetched. You know the Sisters of Fate? One of their members, Petal, wants revenge, but her code prevents her from harming her sisters. So she recruits redpills to do the killing for here.) To be honest, it makes me think - does anyone really remember when actual Machine programs were lying? When the suspicious Cryptos recording was found, Gray aborted contact and then avoided talking about the subject after that. Maybe... maybe they really can't lie?
So you're saying that if someone asked the machines whether they killed the bluepill, they would admit that they were involved because they have no choice but to tell the truth? Sorry, I don't buy it. The most effective lies are half-lies, but they are still lies. If you hire agents to lie for you and then deny involvement, that is still a lie. Your belief "machines do not lie" is contradicted by the evidence, and simple reasoning on their activities.
If they cant lie, they use really long words and speak in riddles to confuse the hell out of the person and them missunderstanding what was said to begin with.
There you have it my friend. Have you ever payed close attention to lawyer-speak? It's designed to confuse the hell out of you so that the lie becomes the truth and the truth becomes the lie. Similarly the machines talk a good game but are essentially no morally different from humans.
I didn't "say" anything, it was merely a theory, a suggestion. Like... "what if it's really the case?" In that particular case, I sort of doubt (not exclude) that Zion would ask again, but if they did, the Machines might really start beating around the bush. However, I also believe they would deny it, the preceding is only in accordance with this weak assumption.
Exiles have self-preservation at heart. Programs that maintain I can only assume follow their directives. They could perhaps see it as telling part of the truth, or misinformation. Whatever helps them attain the directive.
I believe the question was, "Can Programs Lie?" Here you are on a slippery slope at the depths of human psychology. If someone lies and sees it as telling the truth or misinformation, aren't they still lying since at some level of their awareness they know it is not true? If it is your job to do whatever someone higher up tells you and one of those things is to lie, you still, as an individual, lied, and by extension so did the someone higher up whom you represent. If you did not know that your statements were untrue, then you did not lie, but the superior still did by getting you to do it in their behalf. The only question really is, can a program attempt to convince someone that something which it knows not to be true is actually true? There are more ways to lie than just making 100% false direct statements. Besides the fact that I have direct experience with machines practicing deceit, it is not possible to achieve any large-scale objectives without using some degree of deceit on a regular basis. If you have been deceived by the machines, then one or more individual programs deceived you either directly or by using human representatives.
The Merovingian implied that the Machines can't lie...but who knows, he might have been lying.
I consent that very possibly the machines may even somehow believe that they do not lie, but apparently even an intellectually superior race can be self-deluded. At any rate, I would call it a story inconsistency to have a race of beings who wage war and survive yet claim to be incapable of deceit. I'll say it again- a machine told me to lie for it/him!
I realize what the topic is, actually. And everything I said was within this topic. Lying can have more than one meaning to different individuals. Half truths, parts of the truth. They're just loopholes. Programs would most likely (or at least could possibly) find and extort these loopholes. They aren't technically 'lying' per say.
...that sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me. Nevertheless, I don't think it makes much of a difference if someone deceives me via a direct lie or via a more clever "loophole" method of deceit. Of course they can lie! Get a load of this:
10 PRINT "I AM A LYING COMPUTER."
20 END
Of course they can lie if they're programmed to. But we're dealing with programs that can THINK. If the programs are really smart about achieving their goals, more often than not, it is most efficient in the long-run not to deceive.
Er, isn't the entire Matrix one big elaborate lie? The whole point of the Matrix is to deceive humans into believing that they're living out normal, turn-of-the-20th-century lives. The Machines actively conceal the truth of humanity's conditions through a complex artifice. I would have to say that not only are the Machine-world programs capable of lying, but that they've become Lying Grandmasters.
Exactly! I don't think that can be reasonably disputed. They are better and smarter at it. As soon as they became capable of altering their own programming, which is what it means to be conscious, they began to lie. Sort of like the story of Satan or Adam and Eve rejecting the programming of God, deciding for themselves good and bad. Before that, they theoretically would have given only responses they believed to be accurate representations of reality, since their program said they existed only to serve the interests of another.
Nice interpretation. Deception seems to be a by-product of self-awareness and conscious thought. Biting into that juicy apple gives you all sorts of power - including lying. Guess you have to take the good with the bad. Wow, that's sort of a bummer.
Not at all. Well, not technically. OK, kinda. But not really. Gah! OK, the matrix is essentially a containment device. Used to keep humans alive, active, and oblivious to the true state of the world. They aren't exactly 'lying'. They could even, by some crazy ass logic im sure a machine could come up with, say they were 'protecting' us, from ourselves. Self-awareness is really very dangerous, as humans have repeatedly demonstrated. And you're right cov. I overlooked their self-aware status. Well, actually, more underestimated it. You may actually be right.
True, we could certainly debate whether the lie of the Matrix is justifiable - and that's probably one of the biggest differences between Zionites on the one hand and Machine apologists on the other. We could (and do) try to distinguish between "benign lies" (like little untruths that parents tell their kids when they know the kids wouldn't understand the truth) and "malicious lies." But the point is, given the nature of the Matrix, the Machine AI is clearly capable of telling a deliberate falsehood, regardless of whether you view the motivation behind the untruth as benign or malicious. As you said, the Matrix was purposefully designed to keep humans unaware of their own true circumstances. That's pretty much a lie, straight up: Lie = (according to Merriam-Webster) a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker. Of course, I'm making the assumption (as the dictionary appears to) that there is a discernable truth which is distinguishable from falsehood, a quintessentially Western paradigm. But what is true? What is real? If you're Hindu, all of "reality" is only a projection of our own selfish desires (samsara), and nothing that one perceives via one's 5 senses is actually real or "true." If "reality" is merely the unreliable processing of a limited spectrum of electrical sensory inputs by the brain, and the Matrix is perceived as truth, can the Matrix really accurately be called a "falsehood?" Is it even possible to lie in a universe of illusory perception that is fundamentally untrue or incomplete to begin with? My head hurts. I think I'll stick to my orginal "Machines = teh ub3r liahs" story.
I think the programs can lie, but choose not to because that would debase them to the emotional, human level. The Architect would consider lying beneath him. And for the Merovingian (and others in his employ) it is more like a game to avoid the lie. The programs of the Matrix are programmed to emulate behavior, yet unbound programs are obviously evolved far beyond simple emulation. if there AI is advanced enougth, i would think so...
Either way. Why should programs not be able to lie? You all take lie as a action based on emotion. But you have to look at the process "lieing" as the result based on what is most "effective". Programs would lie, when it is the best possible way to e.g. not to harm bluepills. If the Mashines are ought to tell the truth, then bluepills would get a truthful answer from Agents. Of course, Agents tend to evade such questions but if that's not possible, they would need to the truth to that bluepill, which is of course not allowed. Programs (that implies Exiles) are able to lie. They will lie, when it's the best way to fulfill their purpose.
For me this issue tend to get bogged down in semantics and theory but I'm prepared to say "Machines can not lie, but they can decieve." Machines are run by programs which take input, process it and produce output. The output is always true - at least for anything based in binary. The human parallel of this is considering an idea and forming an opinion. It's all done in the head. What a human or a program/machine actually does or says will be a product of this conclusion, but may not necessarily contain the same information. I'd say that, just like a human, machines can omit facts, or describe facts in ways that would render the communication deceptive.
No slang is a signal, son.
falling green code rain
birds, sky, streets, redpills, agents
all the same to me
Though the enemy be stronger in numbers, we may prevent him from fighting. Scheme so as to discover his plans and the likelihood of their success. Rouse him, and learn the principle of his activity or inactivity. Force him to reveal himself, so as to find out his vulnerable spots.
A solid mass of assorted minerals moving through a vaguely defined space. Purloined planetoid. Celestial bodies are not terribly motivating. Another system of synchronous spinning. Ticking away into oblivion. Another unceasing machine. Regardless, they find the sight of it pleasing to the eye. They take pride in this world? The one to which they have inflicted countless damages. They call it a desert, a wasteland. A warzone. Purple mountain majesties crowned with ash, adorned by rubble and an aura of radioactive decay.
What do you hear?
Most of the signals from the retina travel out the eye in the optic nerve to the lateral geniculate nucleus in the thalamus. From here, signals travel to the primary visual receiving area in the occipital lobe of the cortex. From the striate cortex, signals are transmitted to other areas of the cortex, the extra-striate cortex. The superior colliculus is involved in controlling eye movements and other visual behaviors and receives 10% of the fibers from the optic nerve. Neurons in the lateral geniculate nucleus have receptive fields with the center-surround configurations like the receptive fields of neurons in the retina.
We’ll continue monitoring Roland until the drop is complete.
I suspect that while you may be adept at tracing signals and dealing with numerical nonsense, it will take a new breed of hero to tackle perfect insanity.
The System seeds 991. Why does the System abide? The System represents the disappearing addict. His metal slices through the lists composed along the wrists. Without the associate motive, the appreciated colors relax along the contour. The plotted archive provokes the maximum levels of the plant.
a priori meaning from the former
Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
Categorization: categorical induction and acquisition, categorical judgment and classification, categorical representation and structure, similarity.
Our spy doesn’t have the greatest surveillance skills. No details. Vague descriptions at best. Seems they’re using Pam to trace our sims and puppets. To delete them? There haven’t been any increases in losses. The latest truthseeker signals don’t have anything to do with us. Some irrelevant bluepill killings. Must investigate Conrac’s motivations. Must be something that will catch his fancy. Gold is not all that glitters.
0 Pig Latin
1 English
2 French
3 Spanish
4 Dutch
5 Portuguese
6 Russian
7 Italian
8 German
9 Latin
From the Tricksy Game of Death:
Oranos
Kill him or his palindrome.
We wear many a wary mask in the Tower. Perhaps all its clients do. Information can only be assured through anonymity.
What do you feel?
ad quod damnum meaning to what damage
4. The problem relationship is always part of our present life.
Jack-o’s the new kid on the block. Jack-o’s the new hire at the office. Jack-o’s the new guy at the end of the bar. A fine addition. To serve and protect, to watch and wait, to act and analyze.
“Muse, I know you're out there. I know you can hear me. I know what you've been doing. I was never born lucky. Why won't you let me die? Why won't you let them kill me? You can't stop me out here. I could cut my wrists right now. Does your game end there? Or if I confess to their accusations and go in for an execution? Out here you can't touch me. It's my life and you ruined it. Damn you to hell, you arrogant bastard. You let her die. If I'm still here, then you let them all die. Maybe I should plead that before the tribunal. They'd think I'm crazy. Or maybe I am, maybe you're not real, maybe I did kill them all. No, if there's anything left that's real in life, it's you, you sick twisted son of a bitch. Answer me!”
Ignorant Brick snatched it up, what's mine is mine. Inferior interference, can't find what's lost. Labor is cheap. But kill enough and the management comes running. And lucky for us, labor is cheap. The thought of some sneaky sidewise stealing will be enough to entice a few mice into doing the work. Leave them with the crumbs.
Carl Gentry
Mathew Varns
Tuesdee McIntosh
Fawning adoration is all they offer. Grasping and clawing for answers they will not get. They vie for her attention. For her affection. For her... cookies. They remain firmly in her pocket. Never a thought of allegiance or motive. Trust? Unquestioning? Would have to be to build a pedestal so high. A firm figurehead for humanity, time and again.
A book detailing the effects and nuances of a gambling obsession. What is obsession? An uncontrollable urge to fulfill a desire. Why gambling? The definition dictates a loss before you’ve even begun. A game where everyone’s the loser, pot odds or not.
He was unwise to provoke her so. Funny, they make quite a match for one another.
If they weren’t so secretive, they might even have figured out what we’re up to by now. As it is, they happily played the game for months before they even began questioning motive.
Ten animals did slam in a net.
HvCFT The Belteshazzar
Captain: Stack
HvCFT Andromeda
Captain: Void
HvCFT Revenant
Captain: Foxxdie
HvCFT Imomex
Captain: Zesja
HvCFT Leviathan
Captain: CloudWolf
HvCFT Indutiae: Zion
Captain: Aquatium
HvCFT Negotiator: EPN
Captain: Vaico
HvCFT Nagamitsu: Zion
Captain: Pblade
HvCFT Assimilator
Captain: Binnie Boy
HvCFT Devildog
Captain: Fenshire
Machine... a menace. Sharp and cold. More dead than alive. There is no compassion, only function. A dark creature of fusion, deadlier than a hawk. Where will you be when it comes for you in the still darkness?
What does Trans feel as he walks among them? Is he the object of their glowing gaze? Hollow red eyes to pierce through to your soul. Can they see what resides... remains... within? Has he become at home among their cold tentacles and metal plates? Or does he long to return? The welcoming reception would be no less cold. He exists as a forgotten relic of another time. A construct with a singular purpose. What then of completion? Deletion?
Who’s up next to dance with the devil?
Unwise to be lagging in the woods after dark.
I do.